[T3] Alignment

Thu Dec 15 08:07:27 PST 2016

You are correct that most shops don't have the owner sit in the car during alignment. But I know of a shop that had a car that kept returning for premature where on the tires. The customer would drop off the car and leave after a few times one of the techs ask the sales rep to have the person come back and once they saw him they then let him know to bring his normal load during his every day driving.  Once he did they knew what the problem was, the driver was excessively over weight and his load was a car full of passengers that were about the same. So they set the alignment with it loaded and the problem was solved.

I went to school with the tech and he also said after that they always asked to see the driver and ask questions. Some times he said that it was just the driver, adding 300 pounds or more to the drivers side shifts things enough to matter.  We had a guy in class who was at least 300 pounds and we tested this to find out if it was true and were surprised how much the geometry changes.

Sorry for the long post I just thought it was a good story since we have been discusing alignment for a while now.

Daniel Du Vall

________________________________
From: type3-vwtype3.org <type3-vwtype3.org-bounces at lists.vwtype3.org> on behalf of Daniel Nohejl <d.nohejl at gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 7:42:09 AM
To: type3 at vwtype3.org
Subject: Re: [T3] Alignment

I wasn't aware there was a worry contest. What's the prize?

William, you say: "An alignment means nothing when you have extra
weight in the car because everything changes . It should be done with
the driver in the car and anything else you usually carry , if not
then it will be off."

In my driving life, I've never had a shop suggest that I sit in the
front seat while they align the car. My impression is that alignments
are done with the car as close to typical driving conditions as
possible but that the specs exist so that an alignment can remain
viable under a variety of driving and load conditions. Otherwise, one
would need an alignment before a trip, mid-trip as weight is shed, and
then upon returning from a trip because the weight has gone back to
"normal." Same would apply on a smaller scale with trips to the store,
adding or subtracting kids, etc.

On Wed, Dec 14, 2016 at 8:12 PM, William J <catnine09 at dslextreme.com> wrote:
> I've been told here I worry so much , well I'm beat now by far.
>
> I've read all of these alignment posts and what stands out most to me is the
> 7K trip you took with all the added cargo weight which could very well have
> caused that tire to wear as it did. That trip was up and down hills and
> turns with all the added weight which in itself places weight on different
> tires and takes it off others.
>
> I have far more miles on my tires than you have and all original parts in
> the rear and front other than the tie rod ends . I wore one set of rears
> years ago both on the inside where the steel belts were showing and was told
> when I got new tires one front original shock was bad RF so I replaced all
> with gas shocks large white in the rear and small silver on the front and
> never had a tire wear issue again .
>
> I have no idea if the shocks solved the problem of if was just crappy tires
> . All I do recall is the rear tires were wider than the front because I
> bought what was available local think they were 185 x15 and perhaps that was
> the reason. Who knows . I check the tire pressure and one day came out of
> work to find a flat then saw the steel belts showing .
>
> Personally I would take a look at the tires you have now to see how they are
> wearing and write down the milage . An alignment means nothing when you have
> extra weight in the car because everything changes . It should be done with
> the driver in the car and anything else you usually carry , if not then it
> will be off.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Nohejl" <d.nohejl at gmail.com>
> To: <type3 at vwtype3.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 2:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [T3] Alignment
>
>
>
>> It took a little less than 40k miles for the tire to wear out on the inner
>> edge. What I don’t know is exactly when it started wearing.
>>
>> I got the tires rotated (front to back/back to front) and a 4 wheel
>> alignment on July 1st of this year. Then we went on a cross-country drive of
>> more than 7k miles. I never noticed the tire wearing like that when it was
>> in the front, but it may have started then (unbeknownst to me as I didn’t
>> even notice the tire was worn out until I had it off for unrelated reasons)
>> and then finished wearing in the back. Alternatively, it might not have
>> started to wear badly until it was rotated to the back. I’ll have to inspect
>> my new tires this weekend and see if I notice any unusual wear.
>>
>>
>> Daniel
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Dec 14, 2016, at 4:00 PM, Daniel K. Du Vall <dduvall at 1peter4-10.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> How long did it take to wear the tire out on the inner edge?
>>>
>>> I would still say that there is a fair amount of toe out on that side
>>> assuming its only one side.
>>>
>>> Toe out causes a tire to scuff as it roles on the inner side of a tire
>>> and toe in is the opposite.
>>>
>>> All our AC VW have a some amount of negative camber but if lowered, which
>>> I assume not in your case, increases the amount of negative camber.
>>>
>>> The more toe in combined with negative camber would cause that sort of
>>> wear in your picture.
>>>
>>>
>>> Far as the bushings assuming they are the OEM rubber ones Jim's right in
>>> that its more than likely not the cause.
>>>
>>> The Red urethane ones would state some one has replaced them and doubtful
>>> that they have worn enough to cause this also.
>>>
>>> The red ones should be visible without any disassembly but maybe a bit of
>>> cleaning.
>>>
>>> Here is a link that show both types:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.mamotorworks.com/VW/subcategory/rear-suspension-bushings
>>>
>>> Air Cooled Volkswagen Rear Spring Plate Bushings From Mid
>>> ...<http://www.mamotorworks.com/VW/subcategory/rear-suspension-bushings>
>>> www.mamotorworks.com<http://www.mamotorworks.com>
>>> This Air Cooled VW Rubber Rear Spring Plate Bushing set is made of a soft
>>> rubber like the OEM bushings used originally. 4 piece car set
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: type3-vwtype3.org <type3-vwtype3.org-bounces at lists.vwtype3.org> on
>>> behalf of Jim Adney <jadney at VWType3.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 1:21:57 PM
>>> To: type3 at vwtype3.org
>>> Subject: Re: [T3] Alignment
>>>
>>> On 13 Dec 2016 at 19:04, Daniel Nohejl wrote:
>>>
>>>> Okay, so I found my notes from 2013 and it looks like 4 NOS spring
>>>> plate bushings were installed in the summer of that year. Does the
>>>> fact that one of those is squeaking mean anything at all? My
>>>> impression is that the OEM rubber ones aren´t supposed to squeak. Of
>>>> course NOS does include the word "old" in it so perhaps they were past
>>>> their prime. In any case, that does mean that the diagonal arm
>>>> bushings are original.
>>>
>>>
>>> The spring plate bushings are intended to "squirm" internally. If
>>> they slip, either inside or outside, they will wear and fail. The
>>> squeak you're hearing could be from slipping, or it could be from
>>> metal to metal contact somewhere.
>>>
>>> As Keith mentioned, the OE bushings are a real bear to install,
>>> because they are so tight. I suspect that the polyurethane
>>> replacements are made slightly smaller, so they will be easy to
>>> install, but that makes them likely to slip and wear, so I'm
>>> skeptical about their long term reliability.
>>>
>>> In 45 years, the ONLY diagonal arm bushings I've ever replaced were
>>> on one side of a '71 squareback where someone had removed the pivot
>>> bolt and neglected to put it back. Left unconstrained for years, the
>>> bushings ran into something else and got distorted to the point where
>>> a replacement pivot bolt would not go in. I had to remove the old
>>> bushings and install new ones to restore the rear suspension
>>> geometry. The owner admitted that this quieted down the ride
>>> significantly, now that the diagonal arm was no longer banging around
>>> back there.
>>>
>>> In other words, I doubt if there's any problem with your diagonal arm
>>> bushings, assuming the pivot bolt is in place.
>>>
>>> --
>>> *******************************
>>> Jim Adney, jadney at vwtype3.org
>>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
>>> *******************************
>>>
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>>
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