[T3] Saul E. Noid

Fri May 20 15:37:07 PDT 2011

There are several aspects that can cause a high resistance path in the
starter motor or solenoid, plus a few mechanical problems that can exist in
the motor or the solenoid, and some problems in the starter/igntion switch
and wiring.  Sounds like you found one of the problems in your system.
Hopefully it was the only one! 

Dave.
UK VW Type 3&4 Club
===================

-----Original Message-----
From: type3-vwtype3.org-bounces at lists.vwtype3.org
[mailto:type3-vwtype3.org-bounces at lists.vwtype3.org] On Behalf Of Alex
Satala
Sent: 20 May 2011 20:05
To: type3 at vwtype3.org
Subject: Re: [T3] Saul E. Noid

Ok maybe i did not understand the problem completely but i had a similar
problem on my ongoing restoration of my type 3, after 7 years of rusting i
tried to start the engine again , i pushed the start button and after a few
turns the engine started (coughing up dirt and smoke) , i turned it off for
1 min and then the problem you described happened: whenever i pushed the
start button the starter motor did nothing and the lights dimmed, after
replacing a different starter motor it instantly worked again turning the
engine right ( after a few trials i found out it also had a problem).
Here is the fix for Starter motor 1
(nothing happens , only dimm lights) = Dissasemble it completely and get a
HUGE soldering iron and resolder all the copper rods of the rotor to its
collector (or go to a guy who has the tool and the skills and perform the
operation), after this the starter motor works again , it would also be
indicated to check on the brushes and connectors of the starters static
parts.

Starter motor 2 ( works ok but turns the engine slow and drains the battery
in 2
-3 starts ) = This one is a little harder (for me) , thing is the starter
was from a different model and was going too far into the flywheel rubbing
against it , this causes alot of friction and much of your battery drains
from this, you can also hear the metal sound when starting it.
Now i'm using starter nr. 1 as it fits very well and now turns the engine
like when it was new.

I hope this was helpful in some way.

WBR Alex

________________________________
From: Keith Park <topnotch at nycap.rr.com>
To: type3 at vwtype3.org
Sent: Wed, May 18, 2011 5:10:26 PM
Subject: Re: [T3] Saul E. Noid

Yea, I got the dim lights but no click whatsoever.  This starter was removed
and cleaned up/out a couple years back when I did the resto, so it should be
in good shape.  I do have an auxillary starter button in the engine
compartment, but with a few hundred pounds of radios and and engine in the
back, I wasn't going to get to that that night.

Yea, frusterating problem as it works great when you have time to really
analyze the issue....

Keith

Top Notch Restorations
topnotch at nycap.rr.com
http://www.a383ina68.addr.com/radiorest/main.htm
71 Squareback "Hothe"
65 Notchback "El Baja Rojo"
65 Squareback "Eggcrate"
87 golf "Winterat"
93 RX7 "Redstur"

-----Original Message-----
From: type3-vwtype3.org-bounces at lists.vwtype3.org
[mailto:type3-vwtype3.org-bounces at lists.vwtype3.org] On Behalf Of Dave Hall
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 7:01 AM
To: type3 at vwtype3.org
Subject: Re: [T3] Saul E. Noid

Could be they just work more reliably if they're not subjected to extremes
of operating temperatures - I've never had a no-turn starter that I isolated
to a solenoid problem, but all three Type 3s I've owned had the "won't start
when they've cooled down after a long journey" syndrome.

The motor is 'inched round' and wound into smooth engagement with the
flywheel gears by the initial current, so a sticking starter bendix or worn
starter bush (on MT) can also cause the same problem as a high resistance
path in the solenoid/starter motor circuit.  Only if the solenoid is moved
enough will the main contacts close.  (Lots of you will know this - not
meaning to teach you to 'suck eggs').

I used to resort to a hot wire from the battery + (protected with a
connector block) that I would connect direct to a wire from the solenoid on
my 6V Variant if it wouldn't turn over on the key any time.  The connecting
braid crumbled on that when I touched it, so it may have been partly that
producing a high-resistance path.  Two other 12V Variants gave trouble if
stopped on a journey for fuel, or the next day.  I found that restarting
immediately after stopping usually meant that it would restart OK when cold,
suggesting something gets a bit displaced or maybe a thin insulating surface
layer develops during running.  Cleaning up brush/commutator area and light
lubrication to ensure the pre-engage spiral worked smoothly cured them for a
while anyway, but when my present Variant started doing it again, I just
added a start relay - probably a good idea with a '71 switch anyway.

It's hard to isolate the real problem cause when removing the starter, since
you want to sort out any problem and do maintenance on the rest so nothing
gives further trouble for a while.

Certainly the amount of dimming of the ignition idiot light is a good
indication of the problem, which shows power is going through the
pre-engageing circuit, and a click, shows the solenoid is trying to move. 

Dave.
UK VW Type 3&4 Club
===================

-----Original Message-----
From: type3-vwtype3.org-bounces at lists.vwtype3.org
[mailto:type3-vwtype3.org-bounces at lists.vwtype3.org] On Behalf Of Keith Park
Sent: 18 May 2011 01:33
To: type3 at vwtype3.org
Subject: Re: [T3] Saul E. Noid

Well you pointed out a valuable point, that if the starter brushes aren't
making good contact, the pull in winding on the solenoid wont be grounded
and it wont engage, but if this is the case the lights wont dim in the dash
because no current will be drawn, or little current.  I could see and feel
mine drawing what I felt was enough to engage something anyway but I didn't
even get a click from it.   The braid often rots away too and causes the
same symptoms.

I don't know what causes them to stick, but they really aren't serviceable.
Whenever Ive taken them off they seem nice and free, but when they get good
and hot or cold they seem to bind.  This one had delayed engagement for the
past few thousand miles at all temps, but since it got good and stuck hot,
its been fine since.

Keith

I don't know why I queried your diagnosis, Keith, knowing that you're an ace
electronics guy!   Still, it might have helped someone else on here I guess.

Is it just mechanical wear in the linkage that makes them sticky, or a bad
copper contact pad maybe?   Adjustment possible?

Dave.
UK VW Type 3&4 Club
===================

snipped

_______________________________________________
VWType3.Org mailing list - type3 at vwtype3.org
http://lists.vwtype3.org/listinfo.cgi/type3-vwtype3.org
Contact gregm at vwtype3.org if you need help with the list.

_______________________________________________
VWType3.Org mailing list - type3 at vwtype3.org
http://lists.vwtype3.org/listinfo.cgi/type3-vwtype3.org
Contact gregm at vwtype3.org if you need help with the list.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
<http://lists.vwtype3.org/private.cgi/type3-vwtype3.org/attachments/20110520
/af357a91/attachment.htm>
_______________________________________________
VWType3.Org mailing list - type3 at vwtype3.org
http://lists.vwtype3.org/listinfo.cgi/type3-vwtype3.org
Contact gregm at vwtype3.org if you need help with the list.