[T3] On a 73 T-3 SB fuel injected aut trans pinging .
William J
catnine09 at dslextreme.com
Tue Dec 5 10:32:35 PST 2017
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Adney" <jadney at vwtype3.org>
To: <type3 at vwtype3.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 6:01 AM
Subject: Re: [T3] On a 73 T-3 SB fuel injected aut trans pinging .
> On 4 Dec 2017 at 21:24, William J wrote:
>
>> I tried to see it advance with a timing light and it was difficult to
>> tell
>> since
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Adney" <jadney at vwtype3.org>
To: <type3 at vwtype3.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 6:01 AM
Subject: Re: [T3] On a 73 T-3 SB fuel injected aut trans pinging .
> On 4 Dec 2017 at 21:24, William J wrote:
>
>> I tried to see it advance with a timing light and it was difficult to
>> tell
>> since I couldn't get a good aim in that small hole ,
>
> The easier way to do this is to remove the cover over the generator pulley
> and shine the timing light in that opening at an angle while looking down
> thru
> the small hole.
>
>> > The other way to check is to simply twist the rotor CW and see if you
>> > can
>> > feel it turn against some spring pressure and then release it and watch
>> > to
>> > see if it snaps smartly back. If it does, it's working.
>>
>> I never really tried to twist the rotor clockwise with any force just
>> enough for the rotor to stop yet when I release it it moves back yet has
>> a
>> bit of free play , meaning I can move it back a bit more than the springs
>> take it back.
>
> Yes, there will always be some free play. That's normal and okay. The
> movement you're interested in is beyond the free play. Past the free play
> there should be spring loaded motion that comes freely back when you
> release the rotor.
I'm a bit confused here. All I've tried is to turn the rotor clockwise a
small amount since I never measured or judged it maybe an 1/8 to 3/16" then
release it and it moves CCW then stops , once it does I can move it back a
bit further CCW what I call free play. On the AH unit I rebuilt I didn't fit
a rotor yet holding the drive dog I turn the upper advance shaft CW and it
returns fully to CCW. Should i try to turn it further CW ? From what I
understand you canot actually move the advance weights it's just the advance
springs that stretch and relax that I would feel.
>
>> it's a pretty distinct ping sound a good rattle that stops as soon as I
>> let
>> of the gas .
>
> I wonder if this could just be some new rattle, rather than a ping. They
> can
> be pretty similar. Check for loose cooling tin, especially the heat
> shields on
> the muffler.
I don't have the stock muffler , I have this EMPI quiet pack header with
a single muffler and the heat exchangers . Last I checked all the tin was
secure , most often the screws to the case and heat exchangers that secure
the lower under cylinder tin get loose or fall out they were tight . I'll
take a look . It just seems odd that on the same road going the same speed
this so callled ping/rattle comes and goes . It sounds so much like a very
harsh ping I was afraid to push it and let it continue for more than enough
time to see if it would happen or not . I can't get it just running the
engine and opening the throttle yet that is not at all like driving it .
>
>> This distributor has never been apart and it was out of a 72 auto trans
>> had
>> the dual advance can.
>
> I'm guessing you're using the advance part of the dual can and setting the
> timing to 5 BTDC at idle, which is the 3rd timing mark from the left. Is
> that
> right?
No , the dual can only worked on the retard side so I never put it on. I
have the single advance only unit the 73 used . When I was trying to pass
smog in 97 I found it didn't work and then they were still available and got
a new one whcih stopped working sometime in 2009 . I have it on the dist
soley because it holds the advance plate from moving on it's own. I have it
timed at 5 BTDC and yes it's the 3rd mark from the left . On the pulley far
left is 5 ATDC then TDC then 5 BTDC then 7.5 BTDC . Since the can is not
working I just have the line plugged so I have no vaccum leak throttle open.
>
> You should have nothing connected to the retard port on the vacuum can;
> that's the one that points toward the distributor body.
>
> If you still have the correct AH distributor from your original engine,
> why not
> use it? If you're worried that it's no good, send it to me to be worked
> over, so
> you can have confidence in it.
The Dist in the car now is a VW 311-905-205AF. The can I used has 505
stamped in the arm. As far as the VW 311-905-205AH . I took it all apart
,washed out all the old grease found no wear and replaced the main shaft
fiber washers and any worn metal shims and lubed all moving parts. I didn't
touch the advance setting by trying to bend the posts . I was careful and
made sure everything was in fine shape with no play in the shaft bushings or
advance weight pivots. I have no idea what the AF is like as far as wear at
all.
>
> Are all the other FI parts on your current engine the correct original '73
> parts? You want the distributor, pressure sensor, brain, and intake air
> distributor to be a '73 matched set.
Yes , all except the intake air distributor . It's the same as the 73 and
came off a 72 auto trans parts car I had . The only difference is it does
not have the EGR tube on top and has the additional port for the vacuum can
retard line . Other than that they are the same thing and have all worked
fine until 2009 when I got this erratic load load miss . The curve on the AF
is very close to the AH so I have had it on since 1997 with no issues. With
that said it never made this noise before last friday . It coming and going
makes it difficult to find just what it is.
Now I have this ping/rattle that came out of no where. I drive let it shift
into 2nd then just try to get to speed a bit faster and it happens then it
doesn't same road same speed engine cold or warmed up makes no difference.
Just to add I was told th engine RPM would increase if the advance stuck
same as when you time it you remove the vacuum lines RPM drops. Thing is
with an auto trans in drive even if the AAR is open and sometimes I see 1500
RPM engine cold , once placed in drive the RPM always drops to 950. Point is
with an auto trans you won't hear or notice it like a standard trans. To
feel it in a auto you need to have one foot on the brake and bring up the
RPM then you feel it try to pull.
I'm going to go check today to see if anything stands out being loose and
take off the dist cap and see if I see anything wrong then pull it and
remove the advance plate just to know the weights are not binding in some
fashion . Old parts have a habit of suddenly failing in odd ways.
>
> --
> *******************************
> Jim Adney, jadney at vwtype3.org
I couldn't get a good aim in that small hole ,
>
> The easier way to do this is to remove the cover over the generator pulley
> and shine the timing light in that opening at an angle while looking down
> thru
> the small hole.
>
>> > The other way to check is to simply twist the rotor CW and see if you
>> > can
>> > feel it turn against some spring pressure and then release it and watch
>> > to
>> > see if it snaps smartly back. If it does, it's working.
>>
>> I never really tried to twist the rotor clockwise with any force just
>> enough for the rotor to stop yet when I release it it moves back yet has
>> a
>> bit of free play , meaning I can move it back a bit more than the springs
>> take it back.
>
> Yes, there will always be some free play. That's normal and okay. The
> movement you're interested in is beyond the free play. Past the free play
> there should be spring loaded motion that comes freely back when you
> release the rotor.
>
>> it's a pretty distinct ping sound a good rattle that stops as soon as I
>> let
>> of the gas .
>
> I wonder if this could just be some new rattle, rather than a ping. They
> can
> be pretty similar. Check for loose cooling tin, especially the heat
> shields on
> the muffler.
>
>> This distributor has never been apart and it was out of a 72 auto trans
>> had
>> the dual advance can.
>
> I'm guessing you're using the advance part of the dual can and setting the
> timing to 5 BTDC at idle, which is the 3rd timing mark from the left. Is
> that
> right?
>
> You should have nothing connected to the retard port on the vacuum can;
> that's the one that points toward the distributor body.
>
> If you still have the correct AH distributor from your original engine,
> why not
> use it? If you're worried that it's no good, send it to me to be worked
> over, so
> you can have confidence in it.
>
> Are all the other FI parts on your current engine the correct original '73
> parts? You want the distributor, pressure sensor, brain, and intake air
> distributor to be a '73 matched set.
>
> --
> *******************************
> Jim Adney, jadney at vwtype3.org
> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
> *******************************
>
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