[T3] type3-vwtype3.org Digest, Vol 87, Issue 9
Nigel East
nigelgeast at gmail.com
Sun Dec 10 08:05:17 PST 2017
What fuel are you using. If it is a blend you could be getting evaporation.
Try doing the tests on none blended fuel. Pure gasoline.
On Sat, 9 Dec 2017 at 10:28 pm, <type3-vwtype3.org-request at lists.vwtype3.org>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: On a 73 T-3 SB fuel injected aut trans pinging . (William J)
> 2. Re: On a 73 T-3 SB fuel injected aut trans pinging . (Dave Hall)
> 3. Re: On a 73 T-3 SB fuel injected aut trans pinging . (Jim Adney)
> 4. Re: On a 73 T-3 SB fuel injected aut trans pinging . (William J)
> 5. Re: On a 73 T-3 SB fuel injected aut trans pinging . (Dave Hall)
> 6. Re: On a 73 T-3 SB fuel injected aut trans pinging . (Jim Adney)
> 7. Re: On a 73 T-3 SB fuel injected aut trans pinging . (William J)
> 8. Re: On a 73 T-3 SB fuel injected aut trans pinging . (William J)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 15:13:50 -0800
> From: "William J" <catnine09 at dslextreme.com>
> To: <type3 at vwtype3.org>
> Subject: Re: [T3] On a 73 T-3 SB fuel injected aut trans pinging .
> Message-ID: <817A79ABBE4442D2BD5AD46BC98114CF at acere355056e8b>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=response
>
> Let me ask if I have this correct.
>
> The idea of the AAR is to allow air to bypass the throttle plate being
> closed on cold start. This extra air causes the MPS to riched the mixture =
> more fuel along with the Head temp sensor . Once the engine is warmed up
> the
> AAR should close and the head temp sensor resistance has dropped it
> basically is out of the picture. These are mainly warm up devices.
>
> At this point the MPS is the main control of the fuel to air ratio and the
> 5 pin TPS is what controls the full load and the 20 clicks is what add's
> fuel as you advance speed which is form of enrichment .
>
> Any vacuum leak other than the AAR for cold start enrichment is going to
> cause a rich mixture . Since the MPS is reading vacuum which is based on
> load is it less vacuum in the IAD that is less vacuum to the MPS= more fuel
> taking the TPS out of the picture?
>
> I ask simply because my unplugging the air temp sensor richens the mix by
> 10% across the board and the engine erratic miss stops tells me it's
> running
> lean . Since from what I understand vacuum leaks cause rich mix is this
> across the board ?
> What am I missing here? Also what is confusing is why the idle does not
> drop to set idle speed right away when I let off the gas? I know it used
> to.
> Is this also caused by a vaccum leak?
>
> I've read no vacuum leaks are allowed . Does this include the PCV system
> this 73 has , meaning as far as I can tell the PCV closes at idle if I
> watch
> it with the small cap off the crank case vent can then as I open the
> throttle I see it open a bit.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "William J" <catnine09 at dslextreme.com>
> To: <type3 at vwtype3.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 4:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [T3] On a 73 T-3 SB fuel injected aut trans pinging .
>
>
> >I installed the AH dist I rebuilt today . connected the light , set the
> >dist right where the old one was and it started right up . I let it warm
> up
> >and checked the timing without resetting the idle speed and set it to 5
> >BTDC. Opened the throttle and it did return to 5 , not in an instant yet
> >within a second . Then I dropped the idle to 850 and it was a hair below 5
> >BTDC and returned the same . I set the idle to 900 .
> >
> > An hour later I drove it and the idle was at 800 and in 1st gear I
> stepped
> > on it and heard a slight ping . The next stop then idle was back to 900
> > and I heard no ping . I tried several times in 1st and second it seemed
> > fine.
> >
> > The issue is if it sits when I stopped at a store for about 30 minutes
> the
> > idle was back to 850 I stepped on it in 1st not ping yet I thought i head
> > a ping for an instant when I started it without being in drive.
> >
> > Also it has this 50 to 100 RPM up and down you could say hunt that's been
> > there for some time in park and even though I dropped the idle speed even
> > before the Dist deal . Sometimes it's steady most times it's not.
> >
> > I couldn't drive it far because all the traffic this time of day. It's
> > better yet not right yet.
> >
> > I have no idea why the idle speed changes or how it can be set at 900
> then
> > drop to 800 and or 850 then return to 900. I could see when I had the
> idle
> > set to 900 and watched the timing marks it was right on 5 BTDC then a
> tiny
> > bit below and followed the RPM rise and fall . The only tach I have is
> > mounted on the speaker grill top of dash .
> >
> > All the idle fluctuation goes away once I unplug the Air intake temp
> > sensor . Perhaps I have either a vacuum leak that comes and goes or a
> head
> > temp sensor that is erratic. Also as you said Jim when I open the
> throttle
> > and let it close it takes a second to drop to idle speed. At least the
> > timing returns to normal much faster yet why it did ping once bugs me . I
> > did get some where changing the dist .
> >
> > I just don't know where to look next , don't know if it's rich or lean .
> > It always ran fine before 2009 and at that time I checked every thing . I
> > cleaned the FI grounds and it was better then it started acting up with
> > that erratic no load miss again. Then the ping deal wondered in weeks
> > later.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "William J" <catnine09 at dslextreme.com>
> > To: <type3 at vwtype3.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2017 12:40 AM
> > Subject: Re: [T3] On a 73 T-3 SB fuel injected aut trans pinging .
> >
> >
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Jim Adney" <jadney at vwtype3.org>
> >> To: <type3 at vwtype3.org>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 9:58 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [T3] On a 73 T-3 SB fuel injected aut trans pinging .
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 5 Dec 2017 at 18:44, William J wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> The Bently state to set the timing to have the lines off and plugged
> >>>> and
> >>>> only states the engine RPM at 850 idle . Is this correct? And if so
> >>>> when you
> >>>> raise it back to 950 plus or - 50 RPM this may advance the timing a
> >>>> bit. for an
> >>>> auto matic car. What is the best way?
> >>>
> >>> It's always a problem if the distributor is already started up the
> >>> advance curve at idle. This leads to the vicious cycle I mentioned
> >>> earlier. You might want to try lowering the idle speed slowly while
> >>> watching the timing to see where the advance starts. For the AT AH,
> >>> it should start somewhere above 1000 rpm. So timing at 950 should be
> >>> fine. Note that since there's no advance between 850 and 950 for the
> >>> AT AH distributor, either speed should give you the same correct
> >>> result.
> >>>
> >>> But, if you find that your advance is starting below 1000 rpm, you
> >>> might try swapping the springs, just in case they got swapped before.
> >>> If that doesn't fix it, you're looking for someone with a distributor
> >>> machine.
> >>
> >> I had the AH in the car before and used points and it worked fine .
> >> Before I took the springs off I took photo's of which spring went on
> each
> >> adjustment post . I also checked and compared it to the AF and they were
> >> the same . If you look at the upper shaft / advance shaft where the
> >> springs hook to the adjustment posts one side has a larger hole with a
> >> number stamped near it think it was 980 . This is where the lighter
> >> spring goes . I checked even though I saw no evidence either one was
> ever
> >> taken apart . At some point someone sprayed red grease all inside the AH
> >> , you couldn't see it until I removed the points plate most of it was
> >> slung all over and that plate the late type has larger openings plenty
> of
> >> room for a spray nozzle to move around. I know the AF Dist was never
> >> touched and it did work fine yet it had rust on the springs and weights
> >> and on the inside walls of the body which is aluminum so it looks like
> >> rust that was flung there and comes off faily easy . Point is the
> springs
> >> are on proper from my photo's and comparing the two .
> >>>
> >>> As for the springs, one will be snug when stationary and that one
> >>> will hold the advance to zero until its preload is met, then it
> >>> controls the early, low rpm, advance.
> >>>
> >>> The other spring has an elongated loop so it doesn't come into play
> >>> until some higher rpm, then it stops the advance until the
> >>> centrifugal force also overcomes that spring's preload; that gives
> >>> the flat section of the advance curve.
> >>>
> >>> Once the second spring's preload is met, the advance continues, but
> >>> now the advance curve is less steep, because the centrifugal force is
> >>> working against the combined strength of both springs.
> >>>
> >>> One other thing to check is to look at the 2 arms that got adjusted
> >>> at the factory to set the advance curve. Look for any signs of
> >>> damage, because sometimes someone loses the screw that holds the
> >>> little plate that holds the points connector to the outside of the
> >>> distributor. If they replace that screw with something longer, it can
> >>> reach in and bend those arms when the distributor turns. That
> >>> completely destroys the advance curve calibration.
> >>
> >> I looked at them and they are not bent also all the screws were the
> stock
> >> ones on both Distributors . I should have checked the AF from the 72
> long
> >> ago. That car sat for years at a U-haul across the street from the Ford
> >> dealer I worked I bought the 73 I have from that Ford dealer , it was
> >> sitting in their small used car lot. The 72 I bought for parts the fuel
> >> tank was all rust inside and I'm sure moisture got in the Dist too.
> >> Course all the oil caked on the engine saved a lot of it . It has to
> much
> >> up and down play so I know the fiber shaft spacers are shot yet I don't
> >> feel any side to side play in the main shaft or the upper section . I
> >> think I can save it.
> >>
> >> I still may go back to points if I can find well made ones . The
> >> Pertronix is 19 years years old . I'd rather change points on the side
> of
> >> the road than deal with removing the pertronix then install points. They
> >> worked fine . I only changed over because I was told they hold timing
> and
> >> seemed like every set of points I had no matter how careful I aligned
> the
> >> contacts they always ended up touching on one edge then it would miss .
> >> One day one of the Ford tune up techs told me I should try the
> electronic
> >> so I did. I had to fiddle to get mine to line up better than out of the
> >> box . Now that I don't drive all that much points would be fine .
> >>>
> >>> Hint: Any time you've done distributor work, always spin the
> >>> distributor shaft by hand before reinstalling it. If there's an
> >>> interference problem, it's MUCH better to discover it by hand, before
> >>> you let the engine force it around.
> >>
> >> I did that as well just to make certain nothing was hitting anything.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> *******************************
> >>> Jim Adney, jadney at vwtype3.org
> >>> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
> >>> *******************************
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> VWType3.Org mailing list - type3 at vwtype3.org
> >>> To unsubscribe or change subscription options, visit:
> >>> http://lists.vwtype3.org/listinfo.cgi/type3-vwtype3.org
> >>> If you need more help, contact: gregm at vwtype3.org
> >>>
> >>
> >>
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> >>
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> >
> >
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 02:07:08 -0000
> From: "Dave Hall" <dave at hallvw.clara.co.uk>
> To: <type3 at vwtype3.org>
> Subject: Re: [T3] On a 73 T-3 SB fuel injected aut trans pinging .
> Message-ID: <502D355439A945EB8473D377EA17E179 at DavidPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I understood the slow reduction in rpm was to reduce the emissions, but
> I've
> been wrong before. ;-)
>
> Dave
> UK VW Type 3&4 Club
> ===================
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: type3-vwtype3.org [mailto:
> type3-vwtype3.org-bounces at lists.vwtype3.org]
> On Behalf Of Jim Adney
> Sent: 05 December 2017 23:03
> To: type3 at vwtype3.org
> Subject: Re: [T3] On a 73 T-3 SB fuel injected aut trans pinging .
>
> On 5 Dec 2017 at 13:15, William J wrote:
>
> > When you close the throttle the timing should return to 5 BTDC right
> > away shouldn't it?
>
> In cases like this, it doesn't always. That's because the advance increases
> the RPM, which holds the advance up, and the advance being in play keeps
> the
> idle up. So you've got a vicious circle.
>
> Try lowering the idle speed a bit.
>
> --
> *******************************
> Jim Adney, jadney at vwtype3.org
> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
> *******************************
>
> _______________________________________________
> VWType3.Org mailing list - type3 at vwtype3.org To unsubscribe or change
> subscription options, visit:
> http://lists.vwtype3.org/listinfo.cgi/type3-vwtype3.org
> If you need more help, contact: gregm at vwtype3.org
>
>
> ---
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> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2017 22:35:11 -0600
> From: "Jim Adney" <jadney at vwtype3.org>
> To: type3 at vwtype3.org
> Subject: Re: [T3] On a 73 T-3 SB fuel injected aut trans pinging .
> Message-ID: <5A2B67FF.28570.33E22147 at jadney.vwtype3.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On 8 Dec 2017 at 15:13, William J wrote:
>
> > The idea of the AAR is to allow air to bypass the throttle plate being
> > closed on cold start. This extra air causes the MPS to riched the
> mixture =
> > more fuel along with the Head temp sensor . Once the engine is warmed up
> the
> > AAR should close and the head temp sensor resistance has dropped it
> > basically is out of the picture. These are mainly warm up devices.
>
> Not quite right. With more air, the MPS gives you more gas, but that's not
> necessarily richer, it's what the brain is programmed to give for that
> amount
> of air at that temp.
>
> > At this point the MPS is the main control of the fuel to air ratio and
> the
> > 5 pin TPS is what controls the full load and the 20 clicks is what add's
> > fuel as you advance speed which is form of enrichment .
>
> The MPS is ALWAYS the main control of the A/F ratio. Then that ratio is
> modified depending on the inputs from the temp sensors and the rpm, from
> the trigger points.
>
> > Any vacuum leak other than the AAR for cold start enrichment is going
> to
> > cause a rich mixture . Since the MPS is reading vacuum which is based on
> > load is it less vacuum in the IAD that is less vacuum to the MPS= more
> fuel
> > taking the TPS out of the picture?
>
> It doesn't cause a rich mixture; it causes more gas to get mixed with the
> increased air, resulting in the same F/A ratio. That's the MPS's job.
>
> The MPS will always know about any air coming into the IAD by any means.
> Yes, less vacuum (more pressure/more air) gets more gas. That's what it has
> to do to maintain the desired F/A ratio.
>
> > I ask simply because my unplugging the air temp sensor richens the mix
> by
> > 10% across the board and the engine erratic miss stops tells me it's
> running
> > lean . Since from what I understand vacuum leaks cause rich mix is this
> > across the board ?
>
> I suspect the 10% figure is an average, and a wild ass guess, too.
> Unplugging takes the resistance to infinity which corresponds to a very
> cold
> engine, which probably results in the max fuel for the MPS and rpm inputs.
> But the change you get is bound to differ if you unplug the sensor when the
> engine is a 160 F rather than 20 F.
>
> > What am I missing here? Also what is confusing is why the idle does not
> > drop to set idle speed right away when I let off the gas? I know it used
> to.
> > Is this also caused by a vaccum leak?
>
> It sure doesn't sound like a vacuum leak. A vacuum leak wouldn't always
> heal itself a few seconds after you let up on the throttle. Have you
> checked
> your carpet to make SURE it's not fouling the gas pedal? And are all the
> pivots at the gas pedal free? Problems here are common.
>
> I feel like you're putting too much emphasis on how the engine idles, as
> opposed to how it drives. These cars don't have the same level of idle
> stabilization that modern cars have. How does it do at speed?
>
> Have you taken the distributor apart and made sure that everything's free
> to
> move and return? Given your apparent delight at delving into things, why
> not
> do that? Or I can rebuild it for you.
>
> > I've read no vacuum leaks are allowed . Does this include the PCV system
> > this 73 has , meaning as far as I can tell the PCV closes at idle if I
> watch
> > it with the small cap off the crank case vent can then as I open the
> > throttle I see it open a bit.
>
> The L-jet system is particularly intolerant of vacuum leaks, because most
> leaks bypass the air measuring flap. On our D-jet systems, any leak into
> the
> IAD is treated as just more air and accomodated by the MPS. Air leaks that
> happen farther downstream cause problems because those don't affect the
> pressure that the MPS sees quite as much as they would if that same air got
> in the IAD; plus downstream leaks will be just for individual cylinders,
> tending to lean them out.
>
> I would have expected the PCV valve to open at idle, as that's when the
> manifold vacuum is at its max. It will actually be higher if you're
> driving and
> take your foot off the throttle, but that's hard to see.
>
> --
> *******************************
> Jim Adney, jadney at vwtype3.org
> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
> *******************************
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 00:02:50 -0800
> From: "William J" <catnine09 at dslextreme.com>
> To: <type3 at vwtype3.org>
> Subject: Re: [T3] On a 73 T-3 SB fuel injected aut trans pinging .
> Message-ID: <56EF4ED0FDA24AA7BA8EDC6D0F2E7D20 at acere355056e8b>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Adney" <jadney at vwtype3.org>
> To: <type3 at vwtype3.org>
> Sent: Friday, December 08, 2017 8:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [T3] On a 73 T-3 SB fuel injected aut trans pinging .
>
>
> > On 8 Dec 2017 at 15:13, William J wrote:
> >
> >> The idea of the AAR is to allow air to bypass the throttle plate being
> >> closed on cold start. This extra air causes the MPS to riched the
> mixture
> >> =
> >> more fuel along with the Head temp sensor . Once the engine is warmed up
> >> the
> >> AAR should close and the head temp sensor resistance has dropped it
> >> basically is out of the picture. These are mainly warm up devices.
> >
> > Not quite right. With more air, the MPS gives you more gas, but that's
> not
> > necessarily richer, it's what the brain is programmed to give for that
> > amount
> > of air at that temp.
> >
> >> At this point the MPS is the main control of the fuel to air ratio and
> >> the
> >> 5 pin TPS is what controls the full load and the 20 clicks is what add's
> >> fuel as you advance speed which is form of enrichment .
> >
> > The MPS is ALWAYS the main control of the A/F ratio. Then that ratio is
> > modified depending on the inputs from the temp sensors and the rpm, from
> > the trigger points.
> >
> >> Any vacuum leak other than the AAR for cold start enrichment is going
> >> to
> >> cause a rich mixture . Since the MPS is reading vacuum which is based on
> >> load is it less vacuum in the IAD that is less vacuum to the MPS= more
> >> fuel
> >> taking the TPS out of the picture?
> >
> > It doesn't cause a rich mixture; it causes more gas to get mixed with the
> > increased air, resulting in the same F/A ratio. That's the MPS's job.
> >
> > The MPS will always know about any air coming into the IAD by any means.
> > Yes, less vacuum (more pressure/more air) gets more gas. That's what it
> > has
> > to do to maintain the desired F/A ratio.
> >
> >> I ask simply because my unplugging the air temp sensor richens the mix
> >> by
> >> 10% across the board and the engine erratic miss stops tells me it's
> >> running
> >> lean . Since from what I understand vacuum leaks cause rich mix is this
> >> across the board ?
> >
> > I suspect the 10% figure is an average, and a wild ass guess, too.
> > Unplugging takes the resistance to infinity which corresponds to a very
> > cold
> > engine, which probably results in the max fuel for the MPS and rpm
> inputs.
> > But the change you get is bound to differ if you unplug the sensor when
> > the
> > engine is a 160 F rather than 20 F.
> >
> >> What am I missing here? Also what is confusing is why the idle does not
> >> drop to set idle speed right away when I let off the gas? I know it used
> >> to.
> >> Is this also caused by a vaccum leak?
> >
> > It sure doesn't sound like a vacuum leak. A vacuum leak wouldn't always
> > heal itself a few seconds after you let up on the throttle. Have you
> > checked
> > your carpet to make SURE it's not fouling the gas pedal? And are all the
> > pivots at the gas pedal free? Problems here are common.
>
> I lifted the carpet not long ago and vacuumed out the entire area , the
> bottm end of the gas pedal rubber sort of a flap was broken off .
> Everything
> else was free . In my case letting off the throttle whether at the gas
> pedal
> or at the throttle itself makes no differnce in how the engine comes back
> to
> set idle speed. When I was checking the timing I was of cause using the
> throttle on the IAD. I did notice the gas pedla felt easir to move once I
> cleaned the area.
> >
> > I feel like you're putting too much emphasis on how the engine idles, as
> > opposed to how it drives. These cars don't have the same level of idle
> > stabilization that modern cars have. How does it do at speed?
>
> It was fine at speed before ,it's was not something that stood out. The
> ping was what brought me to this point. Before that I was not all that
> concerned . It did concern me that the idle was not stable simply because
> the I could hear as well as feel the exhaust was not close to a steady beat
> . It's not like a steady one cylinder miss fire or the engine rocking and
> shaking. This is why I refer to it as an erratic missfire and so far the
> ONLY thing that corrects this is unplugging the air temp sensor on the
> right
> side of the IAD . Also I know how it ran before 2009 when this began.
> Before
> that if I was near the rear of the car I could hear the exhaust was even
> and
> steady like a heart beat now it's like heart palpitations on a regular
> basis.
>
> I've been trying to describe this for a while. It's next to impossible to
> use words . Now since the air temp senser may or may not add 10% more fuel
> or change the fuel to air ratio the point I've been trying to express the
> second I unplug it every single miss fire is gone in an instant . This is
> not a good example , but pull one plug wire on any air cooled VW what do
> you
> notice then put it back on . This sensor being plugged in then unplugged
> has
> the same instant affect. I am trying to find out why. I know what it does,
> I
> know the high and low ohm readings are within spec for what that's worth
> and
> I know it is not shorted internal or via the 2 wires to the ECU. I also
> know
> when the engine is cold which here can range from 65 F to 95 F sitting all
> night when I first fire it up it runs fine no miss fire , within at least 2
> minutes the miss fire begins and stays there . If I unplug it when cold it
> runs better plugged in yet only for the 2 minutes . Adding to this when
> it's
> miss firing hand near the tail pipe I feel weak pulses and strong ones , I
> unplug the sensor they are all even . Also plugged in I slowly yet steady
> give it gas in park no engine load idle at 900 the RPM's do not rise smooth
> they hang and even might reach 1500 then drop down like it's fighting
> itself
> until it reaches 2300 to 2500 RPM at that point the response is smooth . If
> I just gun it fast no problem . Unplug the sensor and it responds every
> time
> smoothly no matter how slow or fast I push down the gas. I don't feel this
> driving at any speed . My main concern is if it's lean for what ever reason
> I very well may burn a valve and when the ping stated burn a hole in the
> piston . I've even tried with the AAR plugged off and it still reacts the
> exact same way . The same missfire is there plugged in and gone unplugged.
> I
> have also had the ECU out and unplugged and checked every single wire to
> every componant and to ground and find not a single issue . I tried another
> ECU I have off the 72 it didn't have the EGR yet with it in it acts the
> same
> way . Before years ago when the engine ran perfect I used the 72 ECU and
> had
> it connected to the dyno at work had the exact same readings on both I was
> trying to pass smog . It was just a bit to rich at idle and if I changed
> any
> setting point gap or timing ballast the HTS it was worse. I can also add
> resistance to the head temp sensor around 600 ohms and leave the air temp
> in
> circuit and get a similar affect meaning the erratic miss clears up yet not
> quite as good .
>
> If I had a bad plug or wire or valve it would not change like it does .
>
>
>
> >
> > Have you taken the distributor apart and made sure that everything's free
> > to
> > move and return? Given your apparent delight at delving into things, why
> > not
> > do that? Or I can rebuild it for you.
>
> Yes I said I rebuilt the AH Dist and it did help meaning the timing would
> return to 5 BTDC within a second instead of 2 minutes. Perhaps you forgot .
> I realize you get lots of emails and keeping track is not so easy. I don't
> find delight in this , I'd much prefer it ran like it should . I don't
> expect it to run like a modern FI memory holding computer car where
> everything has built in compensation for every condition.
>
> This is the first and only FI car I ever had . Sure it's over 40 years old
> It still should run even . You have a few T-3's if you had the engine
> running and heard this erratic missfire and uneven exhaust pulse wouldn't
> you try to find out what it was.
>
> This is my only car and that's my problem . I only have a certain amount
> of
> spare parts and if I knew they would not be available I would have stocked
> up. I didn't think ahead or plan for this to become my only transport.
>
> I joined Samba in 2009 when this issue of the way this car runs came about
> . I've gotten assorted answers and ideas most of all no vacuum leaks
> allowed
> to rule evevything out ign first then vacuum leaks , valve adjustment ,
> temp
> sensor hot and cold readings , fuel pressure , injector leaks then adjust
> the MPS.
>
> In 2006 and all the years before this car ran great . In 2009 this started
> and yes the fuel . Perhaps in that time frame it's the fuel that is crap
> and
> the root of all these issues . I can't test that , I have no clue what's
> even in it. Many have no issues with the fuel , many have tossed the FI and
> gone to carbs..
>
> The last thing I want to do is toss parts at it hoping to fix it. If I
> could make a video or just record the sound of the miss and post it somehow
> perhaps someone would understand what I can't express in words.
> >
> >> I've read no vacuum leaks are allowed . Does this include the PCV
> system
> >> this 73 has , meaning as far as I can tell the PCV closes at idle if I
> >> watch
> >> it with the small cap off the crank case vent can then as I open the
> >> throttle I see it open a bit.
> >
> > The L-jet system is particularly intolerant of vacuum leaks, because most
> > leaks bypass the air measuring flap. On our D-jet systems, any leak into
> > the
> > IAD is treated as just more air and accomodated by the MPS. Air leaks
> that
> > happen farther downstream cause problems because those don't affect the
> > pressure that the MPS sees quite as much as they would if that same air
> > got
> > in the IAD; plus downstream leaks will be just for individual cylinders,
> > tending to lean them out.
> >
> > I would have expected the PCV valve to open at idle, as that's when the
> > manifold vacuum is at its max. It will actually be higher if you're
> > driving and
> > take your foot off the throttle, but that's hard to see.
>
> The PCV does open at idle just not a lot.. I haven't played around with it
> much not enough to be concerned as long as it vents the crank case and
> isn't
> sucking in oil which it doesn't.
> >
> > --
> > *******************************
> > Jim Adney, jadney at vwtype3.org
> > Madison, Wisconsin, USA
> > *******************************
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > VWType3.Org mailing list - type3 at vwtype3.org
> > To unsubscribe or change subscription options, visit:
> > http://lists.vwtype3.org/listinfo.cgi/type3-vwtype3.org
> > If you need more help, contact: gregm at vwtype3.org
> >
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 11:18:25 -0000
> From: "Dave Hall" <dave at hallvw.clara.co.uk>
> To: <type3 at vwtype3.org>
> Subject: Re: [T3] On a 73 T-3 SB fuel injected aut trans pinging .
> Message-ID: <9BBBB850E49C4D2680CAEFBFB34AE2FD at DavidPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I wonder if all this is the car's way of asking you to take it for a good
> drive. Unless I'm mixing up two listees, this car isn't driven very far at
> all.
> I've certainly heard of VW dealers resorting to a good brisk drive in a
> 'grumbling' car that does minimal mileage, just to clear out the 'soot'.
> Now the advance is working better, maybe that's worth trying?
>
> Dave
> UK VW Type 3&4 Club
> ===================
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: type3-vwtype3.org [mailto:
> type3-vwtype3.org-bounces at lists.vwtype3.org]
> On Behalf Of Jim Adney
> Sent: 09 December 2017 04:35
> To: type3 at vwtype3.org
> Subject: Re: [T3] On a 73 T-3 SB fuel injected aut trans pinging .
>
> On 8 Dec 2017 at 15:13, William J wrote:
>
> Content removed
>
> --
> *******************************
> Jim Adney, jadney at vwtype3.org
> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
> *******************************
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2017 07:10:46 -0600
> From: "Jim Adney" <jadney at vwtype3.org>
> To: type3 at vwtype3.org
> Subject: Re: [T3] On a 73 T-3 SB fuel injected aut trans pinging .
> Message-ID: <5A2BE0D6.13998.35BA26FD at jadney.vwtype3.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On 9 Dec 2017 at 11:18, Dave Hall wrote:
>
> > I wonder if all this is the car's way of asking you to take it for a good
> > drive. Unless I'm mixing up two listees, this car isn't driven very far
> at
> > all.
> > I've certainly heard of VW dealers resorting to a good brisk drive in a
> > 'grumbling' car that does minimal mileage, just to clear out the 'soot'.
> > Now the advance is working better, maybe that's worth trying?
>
> Yes, I'll second that. William has said he never gets the car above 45
> mi/hr,
> so let's see what a couple hours at 65-70 does.
>
> --
> *******************************
> Jim Adney, jadney at vwtype3.org
> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
> *******************************
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 10:36:39 -0800
> From: "William J" <catnine09 at dslextreme.com>
> To: <type3 at vwtype3.org>
> Subject: Re: [T3] On a 73 T-3 SB fuel injected aut trans pinging .
> Message-ID: <A660B322D25A444A9539E4087F6C012D at acere355056e8b>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> It's certainly possible . Last time I drove it faster than 45 MPH was 2006
> except one freeway drive in 2015 . I do step on it on main and some side
> streets and keep the auto trans in 2nd gear which is not quite the same
> thing as fully warming it up .
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Hall" <dave at hallvw.clara.co.uk>
> To: <type3 at vwtype3.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2017 3:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [T3] On a 73 T-3 SB fuel injected aut trans pinging .
>
>
> >I wonder if all this is the car's way of asking you to take it for a good
> > drive. Unless I'm mixing up two listees, this car isn't driven very far
> > at
> > all.
> > I've certainly heard of VW dealers resorting to a good brisk drive in a
> > 'grumbling' car that does minimal mileage, just to clear out the 'soot'.
> > Now the advance is working better, maybe that's worth trying?
> >
> > Dave
> > UK VW Type 3&4 Club
> > ===================
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: type3-vwtype3.org
> > [mailto:type3-vwtype3.org-bounces at lists.vwtype3.org]
> > On Behalf Of Jim Adney
> > Sent: 09 December 2017 04:35
> > To: type3 at vwtype3.org
> > Subject: Re: [T3] On a 73 T-3 SB fuel injected aut trans pinging .
> >
> > On 8 Dec 2017 at 15:13, William J wrote:
> >
> > Content removed
> >
> > --
> > *******************************
> > Jim Adney, jadney at vwtype3.org
> > Madison, Wisconsin, USA
> > *******************************
> >
> >
> > ---
> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> > https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > VWType3.Org mailing list - type3 at vwtype3.org
> > To unsubscribe or change subscription options, visit:
> > http://lists.vwtype3.org/listinfo.cgi/type3-vwtype3.org
> > If you need more help, contact: gregm at vwtype3.org
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 11:28:10 -0800
> From: "William J" <catnine09 at dslextreme.com>
> To: <type3 at vwtype3.org>
> Subject: Re: [T3] On a 73 T-3 SB fuel injected aut trans pinging .
> Message-ID: <73D08C3D51FA48B687D1541B69634077 at acere355056e8b>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> I think it's possible and even probable .
>
> There is just one detail I wanted to add. I just want to stress one point.
> I don't recall if I brought this up about when I start the car cold well
> before the ping thing . The AAR would be open , the idle would be set at
> 950
> , in a minute the idle would rise to 1500 RPM and once in reverse drop back
> down . As soon as I placed it back in park it would hang at 1500 for a
> while. And not to dwell on the unplugged air temp sensor . I just drove it
> today and last Thursday with the sensor un plugged and it no longer does
> this. From what I understand The AAR is only to allow air to bypass the
> closed throttle plate and the MPS senses this adding more fuel . It's not
> supposed to increase the RPM that much perhaps a bit yet not 550 RPM's
> higher than the set base idle . Since it rises so much it in fact advances
> the timing which it will because of the RPM increase . What it does now is
> start and run at 950 and basically holds that even in drive only with a
> short drop when I shift it into drive or reverse and once warm the idle
> drops to 850 and seems to remain there in drive then in park rises to 950.
> About a year ago it would have the 1500 RPM right away and if I let it idle
> it would stay there for a good 15 to 20 minutes then drop to the 950 and
> begin the erratic miss.
>
> I only bring this up not to debate what percentage the air temp sensor
> richens the mix only because doing this changes the way it runs so much . I
> have read this was an old techs trick on Rennlist I think . On the other
> end
> and only by a few people on Samba I am told to adjust the MPS . My thinking
> is not to mess with the MPS I feel it just work as is . It does not leak
> and
> the 2 readings 90 ohm and 350 ohms are when they should be and it's the
> proper one for my E system..
>
> I do agree with a long drive yet based just on what the sensor does and
> it's not just the idle that smooths out it runs better as I drive it. Once
> I
> pulled the Dist that was sticking and installed the AH and timed it it lost
> a bit of pickup that came back with the sensor unplugged. I imagine there
> is
> some difference between the two distibutors advanc curve. Yet this did not
> fix the erratic miss that remained the same.
>
> Do I look for a vacuum leak?
>
> I am just trying to find out why this is. I'd rather run rich than lean
> for
> obvious reasons.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Adney" <jadney at vwtype3.org>
> To: <type3 at vwtype3.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2017 5:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [T3] On a 73 T-3 SB fuel injected aut trans pinging .
>
>
> > On 9 Dec 2017 at 11:18, Dave Hall wrote:
> >
> >> I wonder if all this is the car's way of asking you to take it for a
> good
> >> drive. Unless I'm mixing up two listees, this car isn't driven very far
> >> at
> >> all.
> >> I've certainly heard of VW dealers resorting to a good brisk drive in a
> >> 'grumbling' car that does minimal mileage, just to clear out the 'soot'.
> >> Now the advance is working better, maybe that's worth trying?
> >
> > Yes, I'll second that. William has said he never gets the car above 45
> > mi/hr,
> > so let's see what a couple hours at 65-70 does.
> >
> > --
> > *******************************
> > Jim Adney, jadney at vwtype3.org
> > Madison, Wisconsin, USA
> > *******************************
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > VWType3.Org mailing list - type3 at vwtype3.org
> > To unsubscribe or change subscription options, visit:
> > http://lists.vwtype3.org/listinfo.cgi/type3-vwtype3.org
> > If you need more help, contact: gregm at vwtype3.org
> >
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
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> To unsubscribe or change subscription options, visit:
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> ------------------------------
>
> End of type3-vwtype3.org Digest, Vol 87, Issue 9
> ************************************************
>
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