[T3] FW: Progress Thanks to P.A.

[Adriel Rowley]

Got a chance to get down South and so happened Pedro came by at about the same time.  He and Jack were a major help today, and Pedro found the turn signal switch connector was grounding to the steering housing.  That is now taken care of, but still having the same issues.  I took the advice of Jack to rewire the fuse box, and rewired part of it.  Here is how I have it per my understanding of the diagrams:
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/817372.jpg
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/817371.jpg
The trouble I am having in addition now is the black and the 
white wire together that controls the fuel pump relay, and the head 
light wiring (relay gets hot now).  Still no headlights. 

Dave, thank you for the circuit diagrams: they are very useful and I used arrows on the diagram to show the path.  It really helped my understanding to the point I realized terminal 49 is to have 12 volts.  Apparently early type 3s without the flasher had power strait from the fuse box to 49.  I was able to figure out so long as there is power to terminal 49, the relay goes no mater which ones I used (stock, 35, or 36).  I belive if this was addressed, it help.  So, what is the reason?

I also checked whether I was getting power into the cluster, and I am not.  The power wire tests open, so es ist kaput.  Believe I have one in my stash, so will see later this week.  That might explain the idiot lights, but not the flashing.

Any help greatly appreciated,
Adriel

----------------------------------------
> From: dave at hallvw.clara.co.uk
> To: type3 at vwtype3.org
> Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 02:28:45 +0100
> Subject: Re: [T3] FW: Progress Thanks to P.A.
>
> Think of the idiot light circuits like this (they are all the same idea):-
>
> +12V (on black wire on gauge cluster with ignition on)----->(idiot
> light)--->(oil pressure light)--->ground.
>
> There's no earthing fault on the gauge cluster that will make these lights
> flash. The only common point in the wiring is the +12V, which I assume is
> being pulsed somehow by an incorrect wiring of the flasher relay.
>
> Your flasher unit is operating when the ignition is on, rather than when you
> turn the flasher lever. The hazard switch is just that - a switch that
> makes both sides of the flashers come on together. It also connects the
> battery direct to the flasher unit for when the ignition is off and the
> switch is pulled out.
>
> You DO NOT HAVE a steady +12V on that black lead - it is somehow being
> pulsed by your flasher relay.
>
> The indicator circuit is:-
>
> +12V(15->hazard switch->49+)--->(49+ ->flasher relay->49a)---->(indicator
> switch)----->(flasher bulbs selected by indicator switch)--->ground.
>
> That's a bit simplified as there is also pin 49b on the flasher relay that
> puts 12V on the flasher idiot lamps in between the pulses to the flasher
> lamps. The 12V on the black wire feeds the idiot lights then grounds
> through the flasher bulbs.
>
> It's hard to make it clear from this distance, but if the indicator switch
> has given trouble, it may be behind the problem.
>
> It's certain that without the black wire having a steady +12V on it, it will
> pulse the idiot lights. You need to find out why it doesn't have a steady
> 12V.
>
> Dave.
> UK VW Type 3&4 Club
> ===================
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: type3-vwtype3.org-bounces at lists.vwtype3.org
> [mailto:type3-vwtype3.org-bounces at lists.vwtype3.org] On Behalf Of Adriel
> Rowley
> Sent: 01 June 2011 04:53
> To: type3 at vwtype3.org
> Subject: Re: [T3] FW: Progress Thanks to P.A.
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
> > From: Bobsnotch at aol.com
> > Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 20:36:01 -0400
> > To: type3 at vwtype3.org
> > Subject: Re: [T3] FW: Progress Thanks to P.A.
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 5/31/2011 6:18:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> > dave at hallvw.clara.co.uk writes:
> >
> > The idiot lights have to have a 12V supply when the ignition is on.
> > Maybe that's the problem. They are not grounded in the cluster at all,
> > but by the various circuits.
> >
> > The oil pressure switch simply grounds that bulb when the pressure is
> > low, the ignition warning light (low voltage/not charging) simply gets
> > grounded when there's no charge to oppose the 12V that should be on it
> > when the ignition is on. The same power lead is used to light the
> > flasher indicators when the switch is on left or right (either one
> > lights BOTH bulbs) when the flasher relay is off to the flasher bulbs
> > themselves. The flasher idiot lights ground through the flasher lamps
> > themselves. That's why the main bulbs flash opposite to the idiot
> > ones.
> >
> > I won't say that all three faults will be cured, but it sounds as if
> > you've not got the 12V supply to the idiot light/fuel gauge cluster
> > from the ignition fuse (ie only hot when ignition is on). It is
> > carried by the BLACK wire into the back of the cluster. I've sent you
> > a photo by separate email.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > This was my thought as well (both the ground issue, and no power). I
> > think Jim was trying to say the same thing, when he suggested looking
> > at the
> > 72-73 wiring diagram in the Bentley. My thought was like yours though,
> > that the idiot lights were passing the ground thru their circuits,
> > when he's trying to either use the TS, or dash lights.
> >
> This is where real time be better.  I feel like yelling, as I have to say so
> much to possibly make a little progress.  Not you alls fault, but my lack of
> how to say it all clearly...  It was so easy to call Russ and he would walk
> me though it, with amazing skill and patience.
>
> So, if the idiots are acting as ground, why then does the indicators still
> flash with ignition in run position?  I am not touching the turn signal
> switch (even
> eliminated) or the dash lights.
>
> Let me explain again.  I get in with key in off position, touch only the
> key, when turned to run position, the gas gauge, indicators, and idiot
> lights flash.
> No turn signals until the switch is moved to open the right or left circuit
> or E.F.S. on; all lamps work properly, checked twice by Gizmo Bob and Jack
> (thanks again!).
>
> Really late, and the dog's snoring is putting me to sleep...
>
>
> Thank you so very much Bob!
> Adriel
>
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