[T3] hot start difficulty

[Dan Badeer]

Thanks to all.

Dave, I will try your relay solution first.  It may be a week or two
before I report back.

Dan

On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 6:02 AM, Dave Hall <dave at hallvw.clara.co.uk> wrote:
> Below is my reply from 28 August, but extra thoughts
>
> Could be as you've got a rebuilt starter that the problem is in the
> ignition/starter switch.  I'd recommend fitting a relay - clearly there's
> not enough power to start the motor inching into engagement to make the main
> contacts in the solenoid put full power on the motor.
> Try shorting the two connections at the solenoid, which will put battery
> power direct onto the starter system.  Take it out of gear and have the
> handbrake firmly on!
>
> If it turns the engine over OK (won't start as ignition is OFF!) it's
> probably something in the wiring through the starter switch, or if it's an
> AUTO maybe a problem with the selector.  Apparently some only start in Park
> and some also in Neutral.  Jim will come back on that one, as I've never
> played with an Auto.
>
>
> MY REPLY 28th August...
>  This is a very common problem.  I've experienced it on different Type 3s
> for at least 30 years!  I'm sure it is due to heat-soak into the starter,
> but you can't stop that happening!   There are several things that may help.
>
> Check the connections to the motor and solenoid - they can become corroded.
> Look at the 'idiot' lights in the speedo to check that they dim slightly
> when you turn the key to 'start' (wait for fuel pump to stop whirring).
>
> The gear on the starter motor may need a little light lubrication to help it
> slide along to engage the flywheel ring-gear.
> If it has manual transmission, the bush in the housing on the transmission
> may benefit from light lubrication.
> The starter motor brushes may be worn, sticking, the brush springs are weak
> or the commutator is dirty so the brushes are no longer making good contact.
> This does seem very common, and tapping the starter motor in situ sometimes
> proves it by starting.
>
> For a long time I restarted immediately after stopping, and then shut off
> again.  Next time it would start fine.
>
> Eventually, after cleaning the motor out and having no more problems for
> years, it started to do the same again.  At that point I added a starting
> relay by the battery.  This is easy to do, isn't very expensive, and for
> maybe 15 years has worked fine for me (I'm tempting fate now!).  It also
> takes a load off the starter contacts in the ignition switch, which is
> another benefit as some are not easy to replace, and all parts are becoming
> harder to find quickly.
>
> Mine is a '71, but the wiring is the same in a '72.  On my right-hand drive
> car, the thick red wire from the starter switch runs along under the carpet
> on the battery side, and has a connector in the rear pasenger's footwell.  I
> don't know if this is different for left-hand drive, as (I presume) you sit
> on the other side of the car to the battery.
> Anyway, separate that connector and extend the front part to the new relay,
> to activating it, and the back part to the relay output, with a new wire
> from the battery + to the relay output circuit. Add an earth wire to the
> relay (or earth through the mounting) and it will very likely cure your
> starting problem.
>
> You generally will not need to have a 'new' starter motor, though that will
> probably also cure it, as long as the wiring, switch or transmission bush
> isn't the problem.
>
> We tend to try to fix things as cheaply as possible, but that does mean
> getting 'down and dirty' and not everyone wants to do that.
>
>
> Loads of theories have circulated about why this happens - mine is that
> expansion of the armature allows it to move to a slightly different
> position, leaving the brushes stuck higher in their holders than normal when
> it all cools down again, and hence not making good contact when you want to
> start.  That's why tapping the starter motor with a hammer often works.
> Some bridge across the solenoid to battery terminals with a coin, which
> works, but needs a long arm and lying on the ground.   I eventually chose to
> fit the starting relay!
>
> There's a page on my club website about it:-
> http://home.clara.net/hallvw/starter.htm
>
> Good luck sorting it.
>
> Dave.
> UK VW Type 3&4 Club
> ===================
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: type3-vwtype3.org-bounces at lists.vwtype3.org
> [mailto:type3-vwtype3.org-bounces at lists.vwtype3.org] On Behalf Of Dan Badeer
> Sent: 16 September 2012 02:01
> To: type3 at vwtype3.org
> Subject: [T3] hot start difficulty
>
> I know this has been covered before, but I can't seem to find it.
>
> New engine (175 miles)
> rebuilt starter
> starter and battery wiring is very good
> new german voltage regulator
> runs great
> I get a click sometimes when trying to start, with nothing cranking; when
> this happens it usually starts on the 2nd try battery is fully charged and
> fairly new (I keep a trickle charger on it) no flat spot or hesitation while
> driving; very smooth through the gears will usually fire on first crank It
> wouldn't start today after a 40 minute drive at about 60 mph.  It cranked
> just fine.....  After cool down, it fired right off, as usual.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Dan
> 65 SB
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