[T3] Ray-O-Vac battery
Gary Forsmo
gbforsmo at gmail.com
Sat Jul 17 13:50:08 PDT 2021
My 1969 MT/FI Squareback has a Ray-O-Vac, Group 42, CCA 475 @ 0°F, battery
installed since ~2014. ???
The Square is a summer driver (May -October).
Each fall, the battery was removed & put on a Schumacher Battery Maintainer
in South Texas during the 6 months that the car was stored in Wisconsin.
In May 2020, the battery was installed & the 1600 engine failed to start
the engine. Using heavy-duty Battery Cables to a running car, it started
and ran fine to relocate the Square 4 miles to our condo garage.
The battery was removed a stored in a cool, dry basement. On 6/25/2021 the
voltage read 12.40 VDC after just sitting for 15 months.
After being on the Maintainer for 1 week the voltage read 13.26 VDC. After
1 hour of "resting" the voltage dropped to 12:98 VDC.
Back on the Maintainer for another week.
On 7/9/2021 the voltage was checked & read 13.30 VDC. After 1 hour of
"resting", the voltage dropped to 13.07 VDC.
Back on the Maintainer for another week.
Today, 7/17/2021 the voltage was checked & read 13.27 VDC. After 1 hour
of "resting" the voltage dropped to 13.04 VDC.
With that history, is it time to buy and install a new 12 Volt Battery?
On Monday, July 12, 2021, <type3-vwtype3.org-request at lists.vwtype3.org>
wrote:
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>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Fuel Pump Relay - 69 Fastback (Jim Adney)
> 2. Re: Fuel Pump Relay - 69 Fastback (Jim Adney)
> 3. Re: Fuel Pump Relay - 69 Fastback (Jim Adney)
> 4. Re: Fuel Pump Relay - 69 Fastback (Jim Adney)
> 5. Re: Fuel Pump Relay - 69 Fastback (Tim Schiller)
> 6. Re: Fuel Pump Relay - 69 Fastback (Jim Adney)
> 7. Re: Fuel Pump Relay - 69 Fastback (Jim Adney)
> 8. Re: Fuel Pump Relay - 69 Fastback (William Jahn)
> 9. Re: Fuel Pump Relay - 69 Fastback (William Jahn)
> 10. Re: Fuel Pump Relay - 69 Fastback (Tim Schiller)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 23:18:44 -0500
> From: "Jim Adney" <jadney at vwtype3.org>
> To: type3 at vwtype3.org
> Subject: Re: [T3] Fuel Pump Relay - 69 Fastback
> Message-ID: <60EBC2A4.10444.15D127FC at jadney.vwtype3.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On 11 Jul 2021 at 16:57, Tim Schiller wrote:
>
> > Ground the wire or the pin? I assume the pin
>
> Neither, leave the coil connections alone for now.
>
> Jumper input to output (30 to 87) on the relay to simply bypass it.
>
> --
> *******************************
> Jim Adney, jadney at vwtype3.org
> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
> *******************************
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 23:18:43 -0500
> From: "Jim Adney" <jadney at vwtype3.org>
> To: type3 at vwtype3.org
> Subject: Re: [T3] Fuel Pump Relay - 69 Fastback
> Message-ID: <60EBC2A3.29875.15D126C4 at jadney.vwtype3.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On 11 Jul 2021 at 15:02, Tim Schiller wrote:
>
> > Without putting a bigger charger on battery, it is at 13V now. There is
> also
> > 13V at the power relay.
>
> You don't want a bigger charger. Disconnect the charger and let the
> battery
> rest for an hour or so, then measure the resting voltage. If it's less
> than 12 V,
> the battery is shot. If it's above 12 V continue charging at the lowest
> possible
> rate.
>
> > Thought I would start at beginning at check pump relay again. There is
> 13V
> > at the 30 pin. When ignition is turned on, there is also 13V at the 85
> and
> > 86 pins.
>
> Unless the engine is turning over, 87 will have 12 V on it only for the
> first ~1
> second after you turn the key ON.
>
> > When I check the 87 pins it is pretty consistent at zero. This is true
> with
> > multiple new relays. If I disconnect pump wire, should I get 13V at the
> pin?
> > I was just trying to eliminate the pump causing a short.
>
> You can repeat the check above with the red pump wire disconnected. The
> result should be the same. If there was an actual short to ground there,
> the
> fuse should have blown.
>
> > The negative braided battery cable has some corrosion. I will need to
> order
> > one if I?m to replace.
>
> That's not a problem, although it's sometimes useful to loosen and
> retighten
> the connections at both ends of the cable. Any modern replacement you buy
> will be junk compared to the OE one, no matter what the old one looks like.
>
> > Harbor Freight has an ignition bypass to allow starting of car when you
> > can?t fully turn key. Is this the type of bypass you are referring to?
>
> I don't think this is likely to be useful to you here.
>
> > I was reading out of a Clymer manual and it discussed pulling the wire
> from
> > the 85 pin on the pump relay that I believe goes to the ECU #19. It says
> to
> > ground this wire to Bypass ignition. Says the pump should run full time
> when
> > doing this to test if pump is good. Didn?t want to do until asking
> someone
> > much smarter than I.
>
> The wires to 85 and 86 should be in a white plastic connector, which
> prevents them from being misconnected. Best to just leave them there. If
> you
> want to run the pump without the relay, just use a small jumper wire to
> connect the 2 red wires on the relay. That bypasses the relay and runs the
> pump full time. If you do this, check carefully for gas leaks and don't
> forget to
> remove the jumper when you're done.
>
> --
> *******************************
> Jim Adney, jadney at vwtype3.org
> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
> *******************************
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 23:18:43 -0500
> From: "Jim Adney" <jadney at vwtype3.org>
> To: type3 at vwtype3.org
> Subject: Re: [T3] Fuel Pump Relay - 69 Fastback
> Message-ID: <60EBC2A3.11378.15D12618 at jadney.vwtype3.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On 11 Jul 2021 at 17:07, William Jahn wrote:
>
> > Take the pump relay connector off and remove 85 from the connector . Then
> > ground the relay pin . DO NOT ground the wire , if you do it will kill
> the
> > ECU . If you want you can cut the wire don't let the end running to the
> > ECU touch any ground . strip that wire at the pump relay end and use a
> > jumper to ground it .
>
> Please don't do any of this. Waste of your time and possibly damaging to
> your parts.
>
> Just jumper 87 to 30, red to red, on the relay.
>
> --
> *******************************
> Jim Adney, jadney at vwtype3.org
> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
> *******************************
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 23:18:44 -0500
> From: "Jim Adney" <jadney at vwtype3.org>
> To: type3 at vwtype3.org
> Subject: Re: [T3] Fuel Pump Relay - 69 Fastback
> Message-ID: <60EBC2A4.23660.15D12760 at jadney.vwtype3.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On 11 Jul 2021 at 17:17, William Jahn wrote:
>
> > If you just ground it connected you will kill the ECU.
>
> No it won't. It won't care. It's an open collector on an NPN transistor to
> ground. You can ground it or not. If you connect a full 12 V to it,
> without any
> limiting resistance, that WILL kill it.
>
>
> --
> *******************************
> Jim Adney, jadney at vwtype3.org
> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
> *******************************
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2021 21:48:56 -0700
> From: Tim Schiller <schillertim at comcast.net>
> To: type3 at vwtype3.org
> Subject: Re: [T3] Fuel Pump Relay - 69 Fastback
> Message-ID: <0BDA9F74-E7BB-47F3-B65F-0C865E2D0072 at comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> ?
> ?I did a little testing when I got home and prior to reading these most
> recent posts. He is what I found or know.
>
> My 85 & 86 wires no longer have the white plastic cover on the pump relay.
> Is it possible to replace?
>
> I did not cut any wires but did ground the 85 pin. When I turn key on,
> pump runs. Turn key off pump stops. So I think this tells me pump is good
> and it is not my ignition.
>
> This appears to indicate there is an issue with the wire labeled in
> Bentley as T1 , 19 which I believe means it goes to the ECU #19 terminal.
> Not sure what is meant by T1, if anything
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jul 11, 2021, at 9:19 PM, Jim Adney <jadney at vwtype3.org> wrote:
> > ?On 11 Jul 2021 at 17:17, William Jahn wrote:
> >
> >> If you just ground it connected you will kill the ECU.
> >
> > No it won't. It won't care. It's an open collector on an NPN transistor
> to
> > ground. You can ground it or not. If you connect a full 12 V to it,
> without any
> > limiting resistance, that WILL kill it.
> >
> >
> > --
> > *******************************
> > Jim Adney, jadney at vwtype3.org
> > Madison, Wisconsin, USA
> > *******************************
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > VWType3.Org mailing list - type3 at vwtype3.org
> > To unsubscribe or change subscription options, visit:
> > http://lists.vwtype3.org/listinfo.cgi/type3-vwtype3.org
> > If you need more help, contact: gregm at vwtype3.org
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 00:55:43 -0500
> From: "Jim Adney" <jadney at vwtype3.org>
> To: type3 at vwtype3.org
> Subject: Re: [T3] Fuel Pump Relay - 69 Fastback
> Message-ID: <60EBD95F.12718.1629F1F7 at jadney.vwtype3.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On 11 Jul 2021 at 21:48, Tim Schiller wrote:
>
> > My 85 & 86 wires no longer have the white plastic cover on the pump
> relay.
> > Is it possible to replace?
>
> Possibly. I'll have to see if I have one I can get to. Do your female
> faston
> lugs still have the locking tab on them?
>
> > I did not cut any wires but did ground the 85 pin. When I turn key on,
> pump
> > runs. Turn key off pump stops. So I think this tells me pump is good and
> it
> > is not my ignition.
>
> Okay, this tells you that the brain is not grounding that wire, so the
> relay was
> not being activated. Does the engine start now?
>
> > This appears to indicate there is an issue with the wire labeled in
> Bentley
> > as T1 , 19 which I believe means it goes to the ECU #19 terminal. Not
> sure
> > what is meant by T1, if anything
>
> T1 is a single wire inline connector. It connects that wire from the relay
> to the
> FI wiring harness wire #19. It's a brown, translucent plastic connector
> bundled with the wiring harness in front of the engine, just to the left
> of the
> IAD (Intake Air Distributor.) Check there to make sure the wires are good
> and properly connected inside.
>
> Reconnect the wire to the relay, turn the key ON, and then use a separate
> wire to ground the connectors inside T1. You don't have to disconnect
> anything inside T1 to do this. When you ground T1 you should hear the
> relay
> click and the pump run. If this happens correctly, you have verified
> everything from T1 forward.
>
> If everything from T1 forward is good, that leaves only the wire from T1
> to
> the brain, the connector to the brain, and the brain itself. Unless you
> find an
> obvious problem in T1 or in the wires, the fault is probably that NPN
> transistor in the brain.
>
> I can replace the transistor, but it's probably not worthwhile doing, as I
> can
> sell you a replacement B brain for less than the parts & labor to do a
> replacement. You have an early '69, which may have come with an A brain
> (A suffix at the end of the VW part number.) If, by some chance, this car
> still
> has an A brain, you definitely want to replace it with a B, which
> superceeded
> the A. I believe most '69s came with B brains. I have known good, used,
> tested B brains for $50 plus shipping. If I ship you a brain along with
> the
> other parts you've asked for, the extra shipping cost would be minimal.
>
>
> --
> *******************************
> Jim Adney, jadney at vwtype3.org
> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
> *******************************
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 10:44:53 -0500
> From: "Jim Adney" <jadney at vwtype3.org>
> To: type3 at vwtype3.org
> Subject: Re: [T3] Fuel Pump Relay - 69 Fastback
> Message-ID: <60EC6375.1371.18455826 at jadney.vwtype3.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On 12 Jul 2021 at 0:55, Jim Adney wrote:
>
> > On 11 Jul 2021 at 21:48, Tim Schiller wrote:
>
> > > I did not cut any wires but did ground the 85 pin. When I turn key on,
> pump
> > > runs. Turn key off pump stops. So I think this tells me pump is good
> and it
> > > is not my ignition.
> >
> > Okay, this tells you that the brain is not grounding that wire, so the
> relay was
> > not being activated. Does the engine start now?
>
> I just realized that this info contradicts your earlier observation that
> you
> could hear relays click when you turned the key ON and again ~1 second
> later. Do you no longer get that second click?
>
> If you get that second click, that means that the connection to wire 19
> and
> the transistor in the brain are all good. It's still possible that there
> is
> something in there that's intermittent, so it doesn't always work. The
> most
> likely candidate would be in T1, where someone has messed with it and
> done a sloppy repair.
>
> --
> *******************************
> Jim Adney, jadney at vwtype3.org
> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
> *******************************
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 11:15:24 -0700
> From: William Jahn <willjahn975 at gmail.com>
> To: type3 at vwtype3.org
> Subject: Re: [T3] Fuel Pump Relay - 69 Fastback
> Message-ID:
> <CADD65r45K8Xe30yh1vJwRRsdp1JOQiy=OetUXBWTYwxhztD+ng at mail.gm
> ail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I was simply going by what the Bentley states. That's all I have for
> reference. In testing the fuel pump Bentely states not to ground that wire
> connected to the ECU it doesn't say all years or specify a year. I never
> had any issues with the pump not running except once when it was the
> connector on the fuel pump. I have no more advice to offer. The only thing
> it seems I was possibly right about was connector T1 and it's an
> intermittent electrical issue and only because it did work a few times.
> Bypassing the relay 87 to 30 will only tell you if the pump and it's wiring
> are working if the engine runs, it won't tell you anything as to why the
> pump relay coil has no ground. The Bentley is fine for some things, not for
> everything.
>
> At least I tried and in doing so made me look like an idiot offering all
> the wrong advice.
>
> On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 9:19 PM Jim Adney <jadney at vwtype3.org> wrote:
>
> > On 11 Jul 2021 at 17:17, William Jahn wrote:
> >
> > > If you just ground it connected you will kill the ECU.
> >
> > No it won't. It won't care. It's an open collector on an NPN transistor
> to
> > ground. You can ground it or not. If you connect a full 12 V to it,
> > without any
> > limiting resistance, that WILL kill it.
> >
> >
> > --
> > *******************************
> > Jim Adney, jadney at vwtype3.org
> > Madison, Wisconsin, USA
> > *******************************
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > VWType3.Org mailing list - type3 at vwtype3.org
> > To unsubscribe or change subscription options, visit:
> > http://lists.vwtype3.org/listinfo.cgi/type3-vwtype3.org
> > If you need more help, contact: gregm at vwtype3.org
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 11:33:04 -0700
> From: William Jahn <willjahn975 at gmail.com>
> To: type3 at vwtype3.org
> Subject: Re: [T3] Fuel Pump Relay - 69 Fastback
> Message-ID:
> <CADD65r6bsThvkpkxZbE=138QJ2NmcXd8X9V3bzaF9UUPDF2PpQ at mail.gm
> ail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> It's difficult trying to diagnose an electrical issue when I can't see the
> car. I've been able to fix everything on my own 73 including repair the
> electric air bypass valve that was sticking . Over time original pump and
> power relays will no longer exist.
>
> On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 11:15 AM William Jahn <willjahn975 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I was simply going by what the Bentley states. That's all I have for
> > reference. In testing the fuel pump Bentely states not to ground that
> wire
> > connected to the ECU it doesn't say all years or specify a year. I never
> > had any issues with the pump not running except once when it was the
> > connector on the fuel pump. I have no more advice to offer. The only
> thing
> > it seems I was possibly right about was connector T1 and it's an
> > intermittent electrical issue and only because it did work a few times.
> > Bypassing the relay 87 to 30 will only tell you if the pump and it's
> wiring
> > are working if the engine runs, it won't tell you anything as to why the
> > pump relay coil has no ground. The Bentley is fine for some things, not
> for
> > everything.
> >
> > At least I tried and in doing so made me look like an idiot offering all
> > the wrong advice.
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 9:19 PM Jim Adney <jadney at vwtype3.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 11 Jul 2021 at 17:17, William Jahn wrote:
> >>
> >> > If you just ground it connected you will kill the ECU.
> >>
> >> No it won't. It won't care. It's an open collector on an NPN transistor
> >> to
> >> ground. You can ground it or not. If you connect a full 12 V to it,
> >> without any
> >> limiting resistance, that WILL kill it.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> *******************************
> >> Jim Adney, jadney at vwtype3.org
> >> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
> >> *******************************
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> VWType3.Org mailing list - type3 at vwtype3.org
> >> To unsubscribe or change subscription options, visit:
> >> http://lists.vwtype3.org/listinfo.cgi/type3-vwtype3.org
> >> If you need more help, contact: gregm at vwtype3.org
> >>
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2021 11:38:11 -0700
> From: Tim Schiller <schillertim at comcast.net>
> To: type3 at vwtype3.org
> Subject: Re: [T3] Fuel Pump Relay - 69 Fastback
> Message-ID: <3D9DDADB-4462-4E9D-94AA-EE30315E527B at comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> From the guy whose car doesn?t run, I have found the collective input to
> be extremely valuable.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jul 12, 2021, at 11:15 AM, William Jahn <willjahn975 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > ?I was simply going by what the Bentley states. That's all I have for
> > reference. In testing the fuel pump Bentely states not to ground that
> wire
> > connected to the ECU it doesn't say all years or specify a year. I never
> > had any issues with the pump not running except once when it was the
> > connector on the fuel pump. I have no more advice to offer. The only
> thing
> > it seems I was possibly right about was connector T1 and it's an
> > intermittent electrical issue and only because it did work a few times.
> > Bypassing the relay 87 to 30 will only tell you if the pump and it's
> wiring
> > are working if the engine runs, it won't tell you anything as to why the
> > pump relay coil has no ground. The Bentley is fine for some things, not
> for
> > everything.
> >
> > At least I tried and in doing so made me look like an idiot offering all
> > the wrong advice.
> >
> >> On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 9:19 PM Jim Adney <jadney at vwtype3.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 11 Jul 2021 at 17:17, William Jahn wrote:
> >>>
> >>> If you just ground it connected you will kill the ECU.
> >>
> >> No it won't. It won't care. It's an open collector on an NPN transistor
> to
> >> ground. You can ground it or not. If you connect a full 12 V to it,
> >> without any
> >> limiting resistance, that WILL kill it.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> *******************************
> >> Jim Adney, jadney at vwtype3.org
> >> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
> >> *******************************
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> VWType3.Org mailing list - type3 at vwtype3.org
> >> To unsubscribe or change subscription options, visit:
> >> http://lists.vwtype3.org/listinfo.cgi/type3-vwtype3.org
> >> If you need more help, contact: gregm at vwtype3.org
> >>
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> > To unsubscribe or change subscription options, visit:
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> > If you need more help, contact: gregm at vwtype3.org
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of type3-vwtype3.org Digest, Vol 130, Issue 12
> **************************************************
>
--
Gary "Frito" - '69 Squareback, FI, MT, One-owner
Rockport, TX (winter)
Lake Geneva, WI (summer)
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